What is canon? Options

[Vlad]

Ronsmyman asked this up in Ferret Wheel but it seems to me its a questions for all the areas. Canon is one of those thing "I know it when I see it". But I find it harder to define exactly when something stops being canon. Anything taking place before year 6 can be pretty well pinned down. but is anything from Year 6 onward always "Alternate Universe" (AU)?

If you write a very plausible year 6 story with Ron and Hermione dating is that canon because it's pretty likely from what we know that they might become a couple? How about Hermione and Draco? That one seems pretty uncanon to me (although I've read some very good stories that posit that very thing and back themselves up with canonlike logic). But what about Herione and Harry? Are all 'ship's AU? Is any story with Sirius alive (again) after year 5 AU? Or with Snape being nice to Harry?

Is it only canon if JKR wrote it or is it canon if you write it in such a way that it seamlessly and logically with what JKR has written?

What do you guys think? (other than that parodies are never canon so why is Ronsmyman even asking this question?)

[agrippa]

Techinically, I think canon includes the following: the 5 novels, the two "textbooks" (Quidditch and Magical Beasts), part of the movies we know to have been approved by JKR based on interviews, and anything given by JKR in an interview.

For our purposes, I think things beyond year 5 can be "canonical" if they stick with what we know. Hermione and Ron? Believable. Hermione and Harry? Okay, maybe. Hermione and Draco? Hard to justify.

I suppose the lines aren't very clear. One really good example of a canonical story would be, say, the events of year 1 told from Ron's point of view.

I'm not too worried about the distinction though... we can just put them where we think they fit best.

[ronsmyman]

(other than that parodies are never canon so why is Ronsmyman even asking this question?)

I like to improve my range of knowledge even if I don't exercise it, when I see something that confuses me I ask a question, and hey, you never know, one day I just might try a serious effort, then again, I do enough of that for school.

I think I can understand the canon now, and should I feel moved to write a serious story I will now know the appropriate place to put it. Thanks for the help!

[Vlad]

(other than that parodies are never canon so why is Ronsmyman even asking this question?)

I like to improve my range of knowledge even if I don't exercise it

which is why you're taking that math course, right?

I think I can understand the canon now, and should I feel moved to write a serious story I will now know the appropriate place to put it. !

Actually, even if one only writes parodies and songs for Hogwarts: The Musical I think it's still useful to know what's canon and what's not.

[zymurgy]

Canon big iron thing. Go BOOM! Then Smoke. Then forum gone. FF all lost.
*cracks up* Sorry- couldn't resist that. If I don't watch out I'll start singing canons... then we'll REALLY be in trouble!
I say it's Canon if it's in the book and blatantly obviouse.

[ronsmyman]

which is why you're taking that math course, right?

(Looks around making sure none of her professors are within hearing range) actually I'm only taking math because it's a general education requirement, the math compartment of my brain is very small and already bursting with too much information, luckily I got high enough scores on my ACT that they didn't require me to take more than one math course. phew.

They should teach an HP canon course, I'd take that. Speaking of canons, at my school's football games they shoot off a canon whenever we get a touchdown, so I was standing cheering on the team when all of the sudden this canon goes off, it scared me so much I almost wet myself, I screamed and jumped into my friend's arms, though, I don't think she appreciated that.

(Goes back and reads what she wrote) Wow, see what I mean...the attention span of a five-year-old.

[moonbeam3243]

*ignoring Ronsmyman's wet pants * Hmmm... I always interpert canon as being believable within the bounds of JK's world. As long as it's logical, then it works for me, which means I think years 6 and 7 are open to possibilities. However, seeing the discussion here, should my challenge that I posted in canon be moved to AU?

[evlpez]

No, Moonbeam. I think it's fine in Canon Fodder - there are plenty of funny moments in HP that could be elaborated on. I don't think your challenge is out of place - you've requested that pieces stick to canon, so whoever answers the challenge will be able to do it I'm sure. Heck, it may be one of the only submissions by ronsmyman that do stick to canon, if she submits a piece.

[ronsmyman]

Hmmm, that's true, I think I might just submit, to prove to myself that I can do it, I did have an idea of how to get Snape to dance in a pink dress that seemed on canon enough to me.

[evlpez]

I'm going to write for this one - as soon as I read it, all the elements came into my head and are probably going to bug me until it's written.

OOH! OOOH! I'm a NITWIT!

[moonbeam3243]

Yay! I can't wait to read 'em! See, I don't even know how to get Snape in a pink dress! I thought to myself, what's the most unlikely thing to happen that would still be hilarious, and that's what I came up with... I think JK would approve, ne?

[McGonagall's Cat]

OK folks... How many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?


Please pick these apart and tell me what I missed. (and where's Kidas when needed?)


Question/thought #1

In GoF Molly Weasley says Whomping Willow wasn’t at Hogwarts when she and Arthur went to school. We know it was planted for Lupin, which makes Molly and Arthur older than James, Sirius, Lupin, etc. We know the Weasley’s have 7 children: Bill, Charley, Percy, Fred & George, Ron, and Ginny. We know Fred & George are 2 yrs older than Ron (and Harry) about once each book, for example they are 7th yrs in book 5 when Ron is a 5th year. Percy is a year or two older than the twins; He’s working in book 5, and is Head Boy in PoA. It is a reasonable assumption that the two older boys follow a similar pattern. Therefore, Bill is probably 7 to 8 years older than Ron. I haven’t caught any specific clues as to the time between Molly’s & Arthur’s Graduation and when Bill was born, however, Lucius is contemporary and always looking down on them as improper and such. Indications are that Draco is an only child, so there is a bit of an inference that Molly and Arthur started their family closer to Graduation than Lucius did or sees as acceptable. Possibly Arthur took the Ministry job straight out of school like Percy has, but didn’t get very far “ahead” before they started having kids (which also supports the economic condition of the Weasleys). So, just to be generous, let’s say add 3 years between Molly’s & Arthur’s Graduation and Bill’s birth.

James, et al could have been 1st years the very next year after Molly’s & Arthur’s Graduation, and probably were since all have some kids the same age. Using the Harry birth date that the folks online have come up with of July 31, 1980, the following falls into line:

Molly & Arthur Graduate approx 1969 plus or minus a year or so
Give the 3year margin between 1972
Bill born 1972 or 1973
Charlie born 1975-ish
Percy born 1977-ish
Fred & George born 1978-ish
Ron born 1980 this is our “given”
Ginny born 1981


Harry born 1980
Minus 7 years of school for parents 1973
Minus a couple years’ margin 1971
add 7 yrs of school for
Marauders & Lily’s Graduation 1976 to 1978

Therefore:
James and Lily had less than 5 years to amass the fortune that is Harry’s in Gringotts' vault. Where did the money come from? How did they get that much in that length of time? (Trick Voldy or other Dark Side folks, like the Blacks, out of it perhaps? Was James independantly wealthy?)




Question/thought #2

While I like Gary Oldman’s acting ability, he’s too old to be Sirius because:

If the above is even close to functional, in Harry’s 3rd year (1993) Sirius would be approx. 32 to 36.
Graduation in 1976 to 1978
Minus the 18 year old age of most 18 18
Born in 1958 1960

Age in PoA 1993 1993
-1958 -1960
35 33


Even Askaban-ed to the max, Oldman is a tad past the right age bracket.

[McGonagall's Cat]

aarrgghh!!!! Those numbers were all lined up in nice grade-school math form until it put them on the forum... aarrggghhh!!!

[Vlad]

In GoF Molly Weasley says Whomping Willow wasn’t at Hogwarts when she and Arthur went to school....

first off, I refer you toThe Lexicon for probably the best thought out/referenced timeline. It's also helpful for finding out other little details of canon. I've read enough fanfiction now that I'm afraid sometimes "canon" and "fanon" are rather intertwined in my brain and the lexicon is usually helpful there.

Therefore:
James and Lily had less than 5 years to amass the fortune that is Harry’s in Gringotts' vault.  Where did the money come from?  How did they get that much in that length of time?

I always assumed they got it the "old fashioned way" - James inherited it.

While I like Gary Oldman’s acting ability, he’s too old to be Sirius

Oldman is a stroke of genius as far as I'm concerned (Thewlis too!). I don't know how old Oldman actually is but Sirius, after 12 years in Azkaban, is going to be considerably aged and I think Oldman has it nailed. And however old Sirius is/looks & Oldman is/looks he's closer than Alan Rickman for Snape (although I love Rickman and love him as Snape). Rickman's 50 something yet Snape is a contemporary of Sirius and Remus.

[ronsmyman]

Your Weasley kid timeline only had two problems that I noticed. Percy is two years older than the twins, meaning that the birthyears of both he and Bill and Charlie should be a year earlier based on your assumption of the two years in between each child (Whish is a good assumption considering that's how a lot of families do it, mine included). Also what happened tp Ginny? She would break the two year theory, so isn't it feasible that some of the rest of the kids don't follow suit either, Ginny was born in 1981, only ONE year after Ron's birth.

As for Gary Oldman, he is 55, He might be a little old for the part but what his incredible acting skills don't cover up make-up certainly will