What is canon? Options

[Vlad]

Ronsmyman asked this up in Ferret Wheel but it seems to me its a questions for all the areas. Canon is one of those thing "I know it when I see it". But I find it harder to define exactly when something stops being canon. Anything taking place before year 6 can be pretty well pinned down. but is anything from Year 6 onward always "Alternate Universe" (AU)?

If you write a very plausible year 6 story with Ron and Hermione dating is that canon because it's pretty likely from what we know that they might become a couple? How about Hermione and Draco? That one seems pretty uncanon to me (although I've read some very good stories that posit that very thing and back themselves up with canonlike logic). But what about Herione and Harry? Are all 'ship's AU? Is any story with Sirius alive (again) after year 5 AU? Or with Snape being nice to Harry?

Is it only canon if JKR wrote it or is it canon if you write it in such a way that it seamlessly and logically with what JKR has written?

What do you guys think? (other than that parodies are never canon so why is Ronsmyman even asking this question?)

[agrippa]

Techinically, I think canon includes the following: the 5 novels, the two "textbooks" (Quidditch and Magical Beasts), part of the movies we know to have been approved by JKR based on interviews, and anything given by JKR in an interview.

For our purposes, I think things beyond year 5 can be "canonical" if they stick with what we know. Hermione and Ron? Believable. Hermione and Harry? Okay, maybe. Hermione and Draco? Hard to justify.

I suppose the lines aren't very clear. One really good example of a canonical story would be, say, the events of year 1 told from Ron's point of view.

I'm not too worried about the distinction though... we can just put them where we think they fit best.

[ronsmyman]

(other than that parodies are never canon so why is Ronsmyman even asking this question?)

I like to improve my range of knowledge even if I don't exercise it, when I see something that confuses me I ask a question, and hey, you never know, one day I just might try a serious effort, then again, I do enough of that for school.

I think I can understand the canon now, and should I feel moved to write a serious story I will now know the appropriate place to put it. Thanks for the help!

[Vlad]

(other than that parodies are never canon so why is Ronsmyman even asking this question?)

I like to improve my range of knowledge even if I don't exercise it

which is why you're taking that math course, right?

I think I can understand the canon now, and should I feel moved to write a serious story I will now know the appropriate place to put it. !

Actually, even if one only writes parodies and songs for Hogwarts: The Musical I think it's still useful to know what's canon and what's not.

[zymurgy]

Canon big iron thing. Go BOOM! Then Smoke. Then forum gone. FF all lost.
*cracks up* Sorry- couldn't resist that. If I don't watch out I'll start singing canons... then we'll REALLY be in trouble!
I say it's Canon if it's in the book and blatantly obviouse.

[ronsmyman]

which is why you're taking that math course, right?

(Looks around making sure none of her professors are within hearing range) actually I'm only taking math because it's a general education requirement, the math compartment of my brain is very small and already bursting with too much information, luckily I got high enough scores on my ACT that they didn't require me to take more than one math course. phew.

They should teach an HP canon course, I'd take that. Speaking of canons, at my school's football games they shoot off a canon whenever we get a touchdown, so I was standing cheering on the team when all of the sudden this canon goes off, it scared me so much I almost wet myself, I screamed and jumped into my friend's arms, though, I don't think she appreciated that.

(Goes back and reads what she wrote) Wow, see what I mean...the attention span of a five-year-old.

[moonbeam3243]

*ignoring Ronsmyman's wet pants * Hmmm... I always interpert canon as being believable within the bounds of JK's world. As long as it's logical, then it works for me, which means I think years 6 and 7 are open to possibilities. However, seeing the discussion here, should my challenge that I posted in canon be moved to AU?

[evlpez]

No, Moonbeam. I think it's fine in Canon Fodder - there are plenty of funny moments in HP that could be elaborated on. I don't think your challenge is out of place - you've requested that pieces stick to canon, so whoever answers the challenge will be able to do it I'm sure. Heck, it may be one of the only submissions by ronsmyman that do stick to canon, if she submits a piece.

[ronsmyman]

Hmmm, that's true, I think I might just submit, to prove to myself that I can do it, I did have an idea of how to get Snape to dance in a pink dress that seemed on canon enough to me.

[evlpez]

I'm going to write for this one - as soon as I read it, all the elements came into my head and are probably going to bug me until it's written.

OOH! OOOH! I'm a NITWIT!

[moonbeam3243]

Yay! I can't wait to read 'em! See, I don't even know how to get Snape in a pink dress! I thought to myself, what's the most unlikely thing to happen that would still be hilarious, and that's what I came up with... I think JK would approve, ne?

[McGonagall's Cat]

OK folks... How many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?


Please pick these apart and tell me what I missed. (and where's Kidas when needed?)


Question/thought #1

In GoF Molly Weasley says Whomping Willow wasn’t at Hogwarts when she and Arthur went to school. We know it was planted for Lupin, which makes Molly and Arthur older than James, Sirius, Lupin, etc. We know the Weasley’s have 7 children: Bill, Charley, Percy, Fred & George, Ron, and Ginny. We know Fred & George are 2 yrs older than Ron (and Harry) about once each book, for example they are 7th yrs in book 5 when Ron is a 5th year. Percy is a year or two older than the twins; He’s working in book 5, and is Head Boy in PoA. It is a reasonable assumption that the two older boys follow a similar pattern. Therefore, Bill is probably 7 to 8 years older than Ron. I haven’t caught any specific clues as to the time between Molly’s & Arthur’s Graduation and when Bill was born, however, Lucius is contemporary and always looking down on them as improper and such. Indications are that Draco is an only child, so there is a bit of an inference that Molly and Arthur started their family closer to Graduation than Lucius did or sees as acceptable. Possibly Arthur took the Ministry job straight out of school like Percy has, but didn’t get very far “ahead” before they started having kids (which also supports the economic condition of the Weasleys). So, just to be generous, let’s say add 3 years between Molly’s & Arthur’s Graduation and Bill’s birth.

James, et al could have been 1st years the very next year after Molly’s & Arthur’s Graduation, and probably were since all have some kids the same age. Using the Harry birth date that the folks online have come up with of July 31, 1980, the following falls into line:

Molly & Arthur Graduate approx 1969 plus or minus a year or so
Give the 3year margin between 1972
Bill born 1972 or 1973
Charlie born 1975-ish
Percy born 1977-ish
Fred & George born 1978-ish
Ron born 1980 this is our “given”
Ginny born 1981


Harry born 1980
Minus 7 years of school for parents 1973
Minus a couple years’ margin 1971
add 7 yrs of school for
Marauders & Lily’s Graduation 1976 to 1978

Therefore:
James and Lily had less than 5 years to amass the fortune that is Harry’s in Gringotts' vault. Where did the money come from? How did they get that much in that length of time? (Trick Voldy or other Dark Side folks, like the Blacks, out of it perhaps? Was James independantly wealthy?)




Question/thought #2

While I like Gary Oldman’s acting ability, he’s too old to be Sirius because:

If the above is even close to functional, in Harry’s 3rd year (1993) Sirius would be approx. 32 to 36.
Graduation in 1976 to 1978
Minus the 18 year old age of most 18 18
Born in 1958 1960

Age in PoA 1993 1993
-1958 -1960
35 33


Even Askaban-ed to the max, Oldman is a tad past the right age bracket.

[McGonagall's Cat]

aarrgghh!!!! Those numbers were all lined up in nice grade-school math form until it put them on the forum... aarrggghhh!!!

[Vlad]

In GoF Molly Weasley says Whomping Willow wasn’t at Hogwarts when she and Arthur went to school....

first off, I refer you toThe Lexicon for probably the best thought out/referenced timeline. It's also helpful for finding out other little details of canon. I've read enough fanfiction now that I'm afraid sometimes "canon" and "fanon" are rather intertwined in my brain and the lexicon is usually helpful there.

Therefore:
James and Lily had less than 5 years to amass the fortune that is Harry’s in Gringotts' vault.  Where did the money come from?  How did they get that much in that length of time?

I always assumed they got it the "old fashioned way" - James inherited it.

While I like Gary Oldman’s acting ability, he’s too old to be Sirius

Oldman is a stroke of genius as far as I'm concerned (Thewlis too!). I don't know how old Oldman actually is but Sirius, after 12 years in Azkaban, is going to be considerably aged and I think Oldman has it nailed. And however old Sirius is/looks & Oldman is/looks he's closer than Alan Rickman for Snape (although I love Rickman and love him as Snape). Rickman's 50 something yet Snape is a contemporary of Sirius and Remus.

[ronsmyman]

Your Weasley kid timeline only had two problems that I noticed. Percy is two years older than the twins, meaning that the birthyears of both he and Bill and Charlie should be a year earlier based on your assumption of the two years in between each child (Whish is a good assumption considering that's how a lot of families do it, mine included). Also what happened tp Ginny? She would break the two year theory, so isn't it feasible that some of the rest of the kids don't follow suit either, Ginny was born in 1981, only ONE year after Ron's birth.

As for Gary Oldman, he is 55, He might be a little old for the part but what his incredible acting skills don't cover up make-up certainly will

[evlpez]

As for Gary Oldman, he is 55, He might be a little old for the part but what his incredible acting skills don't cover up make-up certainly will

I was pretty disappointed when I heard Oldman was playing Sirius. I love his work, but he just didn't fit my mind's image of him. I was looking forward to more of a Joseph Fiennes kinda thing.

Now that we're stuck with Oldman, I must remind myself that he truly is a chameleon and a genius, and I've never disliked anything he's ever done.

Re: timeline - In the PP scene 5, one of my submissions had Bill as a 5th year prefect in 1981. I had used the Lexicon to come up with that estimation... but I can't find my notes right now and am too scatterbrained this morning to recount how I explained it then to people when they asked... but Ginny might have memories of Bill being head boy, even if she was only 2 years old at the time. I like to think that things like this are more possible in the Potterverse. After all, who knows what neurology magical folk have that is different from us muggles? They live longer, certainly... it is possible that their brains are wired differently and though I have very few memories of being 2 years old, Ginny might.
At least that's my theory (and my excuse for allowing Bill and Charlie to be in that scene, not that it mattered).

[McGonagall's Cat]

I gotta disagree Vlad... I LOVE the casting Chris Columbus' movies have had. Rickman oozes a sensuous intensity. He's PERFECT acting-wise... However, he's in his early 60's, so age-wise he's about twice what he should be... but when the first 2 movies were being made we hadn't seen him being in school with James & crew, so didn't know he was over-age.

[Vlad]

I gotta disagree Vlad... I LOVE the casting Chris Columbus' movies have had. Rickman oozes a sensuous intensity. He's PERFECT acting-wise... However, he's in his early 60's, so age-wise he's about twice what he should be... but when the first 2 movies were being made we hadn't seen him being in school with James & crew, so didn't know he was over-age.

Oh, I love the first two movies CASTING-wise - it's the rest of them that I hated. I think Columbus was sooooo wrong and I hatd both movies. Casting was the only genius. Maggie SMith is wonderful, I loved Harris (I know not everyone did), and Rickman walks on water as far as I'm concerned.

However, the movies were made *after* we knew about Snape being the same age as the maruaders so you can't let the movie makers off the hook for casting Rickman because they didn't know he was supposed to be younger. He was the right guy for the part and they cast him regardless of his age. I feel the same way about Oldman. He's the right guy for the part and that he's 55 in real life doesn't matter to me. He'll be Sirius in the movie no problem.

[moonbeam3243]

Well, I was just going to refer you to the Lexicon, too, but Vlad beat me to it. I have always assumed that either James or Lily had some sort of inheritance thing going on, but the more I think about it, the more I believe there is something much more important in the little detail of the fortune. When Sirius talks about James in OotP, I did not get the impression that James was from a rich family. Well off, sure, but not rich. And for James to inherit, someone would have to die...

Keeping in mind that it was a short time period and that James and Lily were both active anti-Voldey people (defeating him three times, etc.) I think that later on in the books there will be something much more definite told about the fortune. If it's inherited, I think JK will tell us from whom and why, but what is more likely is that James and Lily did something before they died, possibly receiving a reward for working against Voldey, possibly posthumously for Harry's benefit.

I'd like to know more about it, but until JK tells me, I've got quite a few ideas on the subject up in my mind.


Side note: Gary Oldman is 55?! Wow, he does NOT look it...

[moonbeam3243]

Hmmm... I posted the last one without realizing that there were three more responses :-) Anyway, about casting... the thing is, if you don't know the actor's age, I really don't think it makes a difference. Take me for example: completely clueless on the actor's real ages. But to me, Snape and Sirius look the right age, so I don't have a problem with it. If I knew that Oldman was 55 and had that playing in the back of my head the whole time, I would have a problem, but I don't and I'm going to quickly forget it... short memory and all that The point is, for me at least, the actor's real age doesn't matter as long as he or she looks the part.

[agrippa]

On the timeline issue, here's the direct link to the lexicon's timeline:
http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timeline_overall.html#Main. It's not yet updated to include everything in OoP.

Arthur and Molly's Hogwarts days are noticiably absent. On Arthur's own page, however, the lexicon says that they were definately at Hogwarts before the 1970s and possibly as early as the 1930s - which would mean they might have known Tom Riddle, Jr. (1938-1945).

The lexicon conjectures that Bill started Hogwarts around 1976, which means he was born around 1965. Lucius Malfoy was born around 1954. Draco, we assume, was born in 1980, which means that Lucius was 26 when Draco born. So I don't know that it's certain that Arthur and Molly were at Hogwarts at the same time as Lucius.

Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore, by comparison, was born around 1840. (This, from a JKR interview that said he was "about 150" years old at the time of Harry's arriaval at Hogwarts.

[McGonagall's Cat]

This has zip to do with Project Ferret, but thought it might be of interest to some of us anyway....

It was the Kim Komando cool site on Saturday:

If you've always wanted to write the great American
novel (or at least
any novel), today is your day. Why?

November 1 is the beginning of National Novel Writing
Month. This
Web site encourages everyone to write a 175-page novel
by midnight
November 30.

You definitely have to be dedicated. Last year, over
14,000 aspiring
writers participated. About 2,100 novels were born.

It doesn't matter if you prefer to write longhand or
type, get
started today!

TO VISIT THIS SITE, GO HERE:
http://www.nanowrimo.org/index.php

[ronsmyman]

Wow, that's really neat! I wish I had that kind of free time.

[McGonagall's Cat]

Thanks for the Lexicon suggestion, butI had already been perusing Lexicon trying to figure all this out... and actually, I may send the post there to see what they do with it. The one thing I ran across there that seemed germain was a comment about Lupin starting Hogwarts in 1970, but that fits with all the mechanations I was going through anyway. After I posted, I did figure out a goof in my theory. Charlie was gone from Hogwarts when Ron started, so he's got to be 8 yrs older than Ron & Harry. Still it doesn't impact the numbers much.
And Ginny started in Ron's 2nd year, but could be almost 2 yrs younger. I'm not too worried about the exact age difference in them because it doesn't do much to calculate the ages of Molly or the Marauders and such, which is where I was trying to get to.

Keep peeling this onion please.



Re: Oldman... "My" Sirius looks more like Keanu Reeves or Hans Matheson... Like Vlad's in Queer Eye for the Evil Guy he's gorgeous. I kind of think of him as a dark haired aristocratic type, and he's GOTTA have long hair so it can fall across his face like Veronica Lake's.


Also, for those of you who are Nick-At-Nite deprived, http://www.pazsaz.com/mork.html

[Vlad]

Re: Oldman... "My" Sirius looks more like Keanu Reeves or Hans Matheson... Like Vlad's in Queer Eye for the Evil Guy he's gorgeous. I kind of think of him as a dark haired aristocratic type, and he's GOTTA have long hair so it can fall across his face like Veronica Lake's.

Ms.Cat, your Sirius can come visit me any ol' time he likes....

I know Sirius pre-Azkaban is supposed to be dead sexy. I can think of any number of fine young things that would fit that bill just dandy. Sirius in PoA is about 33 years old (still young in *my* book) but has spent 12 years in Azkaban - that's gotta wear some of the sexy off of anyone. If anything, I think Oldman is still too sexy to be Sirius. The few stills of him that have escaped the PoA set sure look fine to me....

[McGonagall's Cat]

Thanks Agrippa! That timeline (which I hadn't stumbled a cross on their site before) says when the Marauders and so on were born... does entirely skip Arthur, and Molly Weasley... Says Bill satrts Hogwarts aprox. 1976, Charlie's born in 67, starts Hogwarts in '78. 'Wish they'd have explained how they got Bill and Charlie's info as they seem much older than I would have thought them to be... like 11 & 13 years older than George & Fred.... Why the big gap? Hmmm... more food for thought.

THANKS!!!

[zymurgy]

*reads last few posts* Errr.. *Stare* THE HORROR! Math is attacking! *runs, stumbling away* Oh, right. as to: "What is Cannon" if... someone who has read the books twenty times can't find anything to complain about- than it's cannon!

[bakbam]

One thing you seem to have forgotten is that in GoF when Bill and Molly come to visit with Harry before the last tourney. Bill states tht he had not been at Hogwarts for 10 years. Meaning that Ron was 4 when Bill left Hogwarts so Bill was born around 67...........Thats where the Lexcon gets the date.

If I am not mistaken one of teh books says that Charlie is 4 years younger than Bill, but I may have things confused

[McGonagall's Cat]

Thanks Bakbam.

Hey! Everybody! Need to go back to Snitchseeker and read Zym's "Sort The Marauders"! It is VERY good! [Or maybe she could share it here?]

[McGonagall's Cat]

<Does it count as a double post if it's 3 months later?>

I was at another HP site (is that a news falsh?) and one of the questions being tossed about there is:

Where did sirius get a wand in the 5th book. I mean, he obviously didn't have one when he escaped from azkaban, and a wand isn't really something someone else can drop by the store and pick up for you.

I'm trying to find where I read it, but I think I remember that part of putting anyone into Azkaban is breaking their wand. It may be from when Hagrid was sent there... (At the Shreiking Shack Sirius used Snape's). And that is really a side issue and doesn't answer where his wand came from anyhow...

You are all brilliant. Got any solid places I can quote to answer this?

[agrippa]

I don't have a canon answer for that, but I've a theory or two.

1. Could Mr. Olivander be helping the Order?
2. We've seen that wands of other wizards will work for other people. Barty Crouch uses Harry's (and, presumably, Mad-Eye Moody's). Wormtail uses Voldemort's. Sirius uses Snape's. If people can use the wands of others - even of their enemies - then why can't someone just pick up a wand for Sirius in Diagon alley? It might not be the "perfect" wand for him, but it might work pretty well.

[StarWalker]

Other possibilities include:

1. He didn't turn his wand in when he was 'captured'. Certainly he must have had it when he accosted Peter, but all I remember about him being caught was that he was standing in the middle of the street laughing. He conceivably could have hidden it by then.

2. Dumbledore may have been keeping it, and returned it to him after he and Buckbeak 'escaped'. After all, he states that he was keeping in contact with Sirius. It certainly would be in his character to retain something like that.

R/
Clyde

[evlpez]

Here's another possibility:

It's never been said anywhere that the wand Sirius used when he was captured was his first or only wand. Once he was back in his childhood home, it's possible that he had access to another wand that chose him. I know he left home before James & Lily were killed, but in a big old Dark home like Grimmauld Place, I'm sure he probably had hiding spots for special things.

It's a stretch, but possible.

[cherabela]

2. We've seen that wands of other wizards will work for other people. Barty Crouch uses Harry's (and, presumably, Mad-Eye Moody's). Wormtail uses Voldemort's. Sirius uses Snape's. If people can use the wands of others - even of their enemies - then why can't someone just pick up a wand for Sirius in Diagon alley? It might not be the "perfect" wand for him, but it might work pretty well.

This stirred a thought. In PS, Mr. Ollivanders had said that it's the wand which chooses the wizard, and that it will not have the same results with any other witch or wizard, if I remember correctly. I see it, that one might not be able to use the wand, because it would cause totally different results if a spell is cast. But, if, as shown, a wizard can use another's wand, and it produces the desired effects, why not just go in the shop, and choose any wand?


I've got a question on canon in general. I've never been able to keep straight to the way it is defined, probably because I have never really understood it. I have read the Lexicon part where canon is mentioned, and it says that only what JK wrote or said is canon. Therefore, whatever we write here, can be said not be canon right? If you have an idea, and you use it in a story, it might be true to character, but not to canon. Or am I mixing things up?

[McGonagall's Cat]

"In charater" is a very goodway to think of canon.

You're right in saying that anything we write here is not canon, simply because JKR is the only one who can write Harry Potter canon - and to my knowledge she's not writing with us.

HOWEVER... what we mean about writing "in canon" is that it has to fit with what she writes.
Cho can not have blonde hair.
Tom Riddle can not suddenly become a misunderstood good guy.
Swearing is limited to phrases such as "Bloody hell" and "Merlin's Beard".
Snape can't act like Gilderoy.
And so on.

Canon is whatever JKR wrote.

We can play with and distort storylines, but not do anything that contradicts what JKR writes if the mission states "in canon".

[zymurgy]

Canon big iron thing.
Go boom!
Then Forum gone.

.... in response to the Sirius' wand thing. I'm quite sure his wand was broken upon incarceration. If they snape a kid's wand when he's expelled, then they'll definately break a felon's. I'm assuming he grabbed a wand while escaping. After all he was 'sited' several times, perhaps one of these he nicked a wizard's wand, one that worked 'so-so' for him.
According to Olivander one "will never get AS GOOD a result with another wizard's wand. It's probably like riding somebody elses Horse. It's still a horse, and you can still ride it, but that persons horse won't know you as well as your own horse, and probably will be a bit slower at obeying your lead; can probably go at different speads than your horse, get tired faster than your horse... you get the idea. Not that I've ever had a horse. Same thing with a bicycle.
So, you have Sirius, using whoever's wand, getting mediocre results, and THAT'S why he was bested by his cousin, and had an experience which some people believe to be equal to death.
If he still had his wand, then none of that would ever have happened.

[cherabela]

We can play with and distort storylines, but not do anything that contradicts what JKR writes if the mission states "in canon".

Hmm....I do try to keep with that, but for some reason, I never manage to. I also have problems with keeping in character at times, so it might be due to that.

I guess the only way to improve is to continue writing fanfiction, and try master the complicated branches of it. I'll start writing more in the Canon threads. That should help no?

[zymurgy]

There's also those hard to place fics, where something totally outrageous and uncanon happens, but everybody stays in character in spite of it.

[cherabela]

With that idea in my mind, I think I should go over my submissions to see where I have gone wrong. That should do it. Thanks guys!